After comforting Chen Guang's family, Chen Qi whispered to Su Zhe, "Chief Prosecutor Su, should we discuss this matter with the Imperial Court?"
Su Zhe was slightly stunned and couldn't help asking, "Why do you want to discuss this with the Imperial Court?"
Chen Qi said: "This case may seem insignificant, but as Chen Guang said, there are many people and government agencies involved. Besides, the way the imperial court is trying the case may get out of control."
Su Zhe hesitated for a moment and said, "Although what you said makes sense, our procuratorate and the imperial court each have their own responsibilities, and there is no distinction between superiors and subordinates. Now this case should be handled by our procuratorate. After finding enough evidence, we will file a lawsuit with the imperial court. Only then can the imperial court intervene. If we go to the imperial court to discuss it now, it will be tantamount to us being controlled by the imperial court, which is even more against the rules."
Chen Qi just nodded slightly. What Su Che said and what he was worried about did not seem to be referring to the same thing.
Su Che also knew what he was thinking, so he added: "The most subtle thing about the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs is that they are not subordinate to each other and they check and balance each other, so the responsibility is shared by each other. Even if someone is offended, the other party does not know who to blame. If we collude with each other, it will make us all feel helpless and fall apart."
These words touched Chen Qi. By checking and balancing each other, they could push the responsibility onto each other.
"also!"
Su Che continued, "You just said that Chen Guang came here to ask how to file a complaint in the Imperial Court. This shows that the people of Hezhong Prefecture only have the Imperial Court, but not our procuratorate. This is extremely detrimental to the construction of the entire public security, procuratorial and judicial system. If this continues, the people will only recognize the Imperial Court, which will force our procuratorate and police station to be subordinate to the Imperial Court, and the checks and balances between them will also be broken. Our procuratorate should do something to help the people understand our entire public security, procuratorial and judicial system."
He was very clear about what his powers were. When he was in the Procuratorate in the capital, he was in charge of the Imperial Court and the Police Station, as well as the Taxation Department.
...
...
After the Suizhou case, he became more wary of the imperial court. He also suspected that this military imperial court had other purposes.
In fact, Zhao Xu relied heavily on Wang Anshi to carry out reforms, and the group headed by Sima Guang were suspicious of him, because Wang Anshi's reform was about finance. It was not an exaggeration to say that it was to make money for the country. It was inevitable that people would wonder, why were you, the emperor, so eager to make money?
Building a palace is unlikely. Zhao Xu paid such a huge political price just to build a palace.
It can only be used to prepare for war.
Su Che was also deeply worried about this. The key point was that he believed that Zhang Fei had too much power. He not only had the power to make precedents, but also the power to interpret the law.
If we don’t keep a closer eye on it, this imperial court will be in chaos!
If the Procuratorate wants to supervise the Imperial Court, it must have authority that matches that of the Imperial Court. If the difference between the two is too great, it will be difficult for the Procuratorate to check and balance the Imperial Court.
At this time, Zhao Xu, who was in Bian Jing, did not know the final judgment yet, but had received a letter from Zhang Fei, in which he learned that the government used financial resources to make things difficult for the public security, procuratorate and courts, and that the Hezhong Prefecture ordered the review of Erbi official documents to hinder the construction of the public security, procuratorate and courts, so he immediately convened an important meeting.
"Since the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs are to be independent of the government, the finances should not be handed over to the local governments. Otherwise, the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs will inevitably be checked and controlled by the government."
Fu Bi said with a little worry.
Wen Yanbo said: "But if the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs are allowed to directly intervene in the finances, the government will be in a weak position, and it will be difficult for the two to check and balance each other."
Fu Bi nodded and said, "That's true."
Wang Anshi said: "In this case, why not let the inner treasury be directly responsible for the finances of the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs?"
“How can this be possible?”
Sima Guang immediately objected, saying, "The public security, procuratorial and judicial organs are in charge of the country's judicial system and are subordinate to the Court of Criminal Justice, the Ministry of Justice and the Supreme Court. If the finances are managed by the inner treasury, there is no reason to do so and the national system will be in chaos."
Fu Bi quickly said, "Sima Xueshi's words make sense. This is indeed not in line with the court system."
The public security, procuratorial and judicial organs can be directly responsible to the emperor, after all, the emperor is the supreme leader. However, if the finances of the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs are to be managed by the emperor's treasury, then the judiciary will be equivalent to the emperor's private ownership. The prime ministers will definitely not agree to this, as it will completely undermine the state system.
Zhao Xu remained calm and asked, "Then what do you think we should do?"
Sima Guang pondered for a moment and said, "In fact, the expenditures of the imperial court and the procuratorate are not very large. They can be directly borne by the central government. The expenditures from the taxes paid to the central government can be counted as part of the financial expenditures of the Court of Justice, the Ministry of Justice, and the Dali Temple.
The police station actually has the highest expenditure. The finances of the police station should be handed over to the local government, which can also reduce the burden on the national treasury. Now in Bianjing, many policies of Kaifeng Prefecture also require the cooperation of the police station. "
Wen Yanbo nodded and said, "I think that the arrangement made by Sima Xueshi is more reasonable."
Wang Anshi and others did not object either.
Zhao Xu said: "This matter will be handled by the three departments, the Privy Council, and the Court of Justice."
Why did the Privy Council need to be involved? First, part of the police department's finances were counted as part of the military. Second, the Privy Councilor Chen Shengzhi was currently serving as the head of the Regulations Department of the Two Prefectures, so Wang Anshi could also participate in it.
"I obey your command."
Zhao Xu then asked, "Regarding the matter of the Erbi official document, how do you think we should deal with it?"
Sima Guang said: "Regarding the Erbi, I think the court should be very cautious, because the Erbi will inevitably increase the burden on the government. Before the public security, procuratorial and judicial systems are mature, the court should still impose some restrictions on the Erbi.
I suggest that the tea eaters and the Erbi be counted separately, and the official documents of the tea eaters should still be the responsibility of the local authorities. After all, many people are illiterate and have to find someone to write their petitions.
At the same time, the power to issue official documents to local governments was taken back. If one wanted to obtain such documents, one had to come to Bian Jing to take the exam, and this aspect could be handed over to the Ministry of Justice and the Institute of Law.
Moreover, the imperial court can specify in official documents where Erbi can conduct lawsuits. In places where there are no public security, procuratorial and judicial organs, I think it is still not easy to change, so as to avoid difficulties for local officials to cope with. "
His suggestion was immediately supported by all the ministers.
Although they support the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs, they are still quite cautious about Erbi. They have seen the abilities of those great Erbi. If officials lack the ability in this regard, they will be completely controlled by Erbi, which will affect the authority of the government. Moreover, according to their understanding, there are many officials who lack the ability in this regard.
Zhao Xu didn't have too many thoughts on this. Seeing that they all agreed, he agreed.
After the meeting, when Fu Bi, Wen Yanbo, and Lu Gong left, Wang Anshi suddenly grabbed Sima Guang and said, "Sima Junshi, we see each other every day. Why don't you talk to me in person? Why write me a letter? If people know about it, they will think we are plotting something."
"Bah!"
Sima Guang immediately raised his hand and broke free. "I wrote to you because I don't want to quarrel with you. If you don't amend the Qingmiao Law, I will never let you succeed."
Wang Anshi laughed and said, "Sima Junshi, when we were discussing usury, you hated it. Now I want to reform and stop usury, but you oppose it. What's the reason?"
Sima Guang laughed, "Are you trying to stop usury, or are you lending usury? The Qingmiao Law originated from the period of separatist regimes in the late Tang Dynasty, and its purpose was to make money. You still have the nerve to ask me why?"
Wang Anshi immediately said: "My Qingmiao is very different from the one at the end of the Tang Dynasty. Nowadays, the landlords charge at least double the interest, but I suggest that the court only charge 20% interest. Isn't this a blessing for the people of the world?"
Sima Guang was surprised and said: "You charge interest, that's a business, and you say you benefit the people, where do you get the nerve to do that! The liquidation method is the method that really benefits the people and is for the benefit of the people.
Also, you should know that the people were forced to break up and die, not all because of the 100% interest. Even if it was 20%, they might not be able to pay it back. What if the government lent out the money recklessly and couldn't collect it?"
Wang Anshi said: "If you want to borrow money from the court, you need to find someone to guarantee it, so that you can be sure that nothing goes wrong."
Sima Guang was waiting here, and immediately said: "The government is infallible, but what about the people? Who would be willing to guarantee a loan? Then the government will inevitably force people to guarantee, and even use this to exploit the upper class. This is more terrible than the yamen servants."
Wang Anshi was so angry that he laughed. "You are just being unreasonable. I can also say that there are many problems in the public security, procuratorial and judicial systems. If the court president, the prosecutor and the police chief are in collusion, it will inevitably lead to the corruption of law and discipline, and even the government will be undermined. You can't use some corrupt officials to judge whether this law is good or bad."
Sima Guang snorted, "You are just making up a story. The purpose of judicial reform is to make the judiciary more fair, so officials will naturally be wary of this. However, your method is to make money, so officials will definitely focus on making money and ignore the lives of the people."
Wang Anshi said: "You are generalizing. My method is to achieve the best of both worlds. While the country benefits, it can also reduce the burden on the people and avoid land annexation. Nowadays, those who have lost their families are most likely forced into extinction by usury. If this continues, the country will inevitably be in turmoil. We must change it."
Sima Guang said: "But have you ever thought about this: the government can still mediate and stop private usury, but if the government lends money, who will supervise it? You said it is 20%,
Wang Anshi said: "Then I will punish you severely."
Sima Guang said: "Do you still remember Wang Hong? Why did the court let him off the hook in the beginning? Wasn't it because he could collect taxes? If those officials were able to amass huge wealth for the court, I don't believe you would punish them severely. Even if you wanted to punish them severely, I'm afraid others would say that the overall situation should be put first. The money has already been spent, so who would have the nerve to punish those who amass wealth for the court?
At that time, Emperor Wu of Han
This kind of thing had already happened during the reign of Emperor Wu of Han. Emperor Wu of Han knew that those officials used various means to exploit the people and make money for the court, but he turned a blind eye. "
Facing Sima Guang's questioning, Wang Anshi just smiled and said, "You study history books every day and ignore reality, so you always look ahead and behind and are timid when doing things. I am not Sang Hongyang, and the emperor is not Emperor Wu of Han. How can you generalize? I have implemented this method in the local area and achieved very good results. You use history books to question me. This is simply ridiculous."
Sima Guang said: "In terms of experience in governing prefectures and counties, I am not as good as you. However, the world is bustling, all for profit, this is an eternal truth. History is a mirror, we can understand the rise and fall of a country, this is even more true. You are using the law of one county to govern the whole country, it is simply a fantasy."
Wang Anshi also began to get angry, and snorted: "That's better than just sitting there and waiting to die! If you have the ability, you should come up with a way to stop this usury. If you can't come up with a solution, and you don't allow others to get rid of bad policies, what's the point of having such a minister?"
"What did you say?"
Sima Guang glared angrily.
"Goodbye!"
Wang Anshi waved his sleeves and left.
Sima Guang was so angry that he gritted his teeth and hung his head and stamped his feet.
"If you listen to advice, you wouldn't be Wang Jiefu anymore."
Wen Yanbo suddenly walked over.
Sima Guang glanced at him and sighed, "If it weren't for Zhang San, I really don't want to stay in this court anymore."
Wen Yanbo said: "Since you are considering Zhang San, you should let Zhang San play a role."
Sima Guang was stunned and asked, "What do you mean, Duke Wen?"
Wen Yanbo said: "The reason why many people still support the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs is that they hope that the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs can check and balance the new law. If we can't stop the Qingmiao Law, why not let Zhang San do it."
Sima Guang asked, "Duke Wen meant to let the Qingmiao Law be tried out in Hezhong Prefecture first."
Wen Yanbo nodded.
Sima Guang said worriedly: "But Zhang San is having a hard time in Hezhong Prefecture now, we shouldn't cause him any more trouble!"
Wen Yanbo said: "Now many ministers are against the Qingmiao Law. Even Chen Shengzhi has kept silent about it. If the public security, procuratorial and judicial organs can play a role, it will surely win more support."
Sima Guang was just like what Wang Anshi said, he was always cautious and hesitant. He hesitated for a moment and said, "It's not urgent now. The two government regulations have not been officially promulgated yet. I will write a letter to Zhang San first to see if he can handle it."
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