Fortunately, this is not a trial but a hearing. The purpose of the hearing is to find out the essence of the whole matter, not to convict anyone, and Zhang Fei will not be aggressive.
Cheng Fang couldn't answer this question, so Zhang Fei didn't bother to argue with him. Instead, he asked, "Superintendent Cheng, you just said that the sailors were short of food and clothing, and that Deputy Envoy Cheng should bear half of the responsibility. Then who will bear the other half?"
Cheng Fang was startled and said hurriedly: "The other half will be borne by the government and the Transportation Bureau in Hebei Province."
Zhang Fei asked: "Why is this?"
Cheng Fang said: "Because the clothing and food are mainly borne by the Transportation Department, and secondly by the local government. But in this process, they always make excuses and delay the distribution of clothing and food. We have no way to deal with this!"
Zhang Fei nodded and asked, "Since the sailors were short of food and clothing at the time, did Supervisor Cheng ever think about shortening the construction period, or waiting until they had enough food and clothing before starting the construction?"
Cheng Fang hurriedly said: "The river works are an urgent matter. If they are delayed, who will be responsible?"
Zhang Fei asked, "Could you please explain in detail how urgent it is to dredge the Sangu River? What would have happened if it had not been dredged last year?"
Cheng Fang said: "If it is not cleared in time, there may be a risk of flooding. Isn't this urgent?"
Zhang Fei lowered his head to read the copy and said, "According to the information received by the Procuratorate, this time the river works, that is, widening the river, salvaging silt, etc., are mainly for remediation. I wonder if it is correct?"
...
...
Cheng Fang nodded.
Zhang Fei said: "But according to the situation of various rivers in Hebei, there are at least five rivers that need to be rectified. If I say that Cheng Dujian's reason can be applied to all rivers with such problems, does Cheng Dujian agree?"
Cheng Fang thought for a long time before saying, "I don't agree, because the Sangu River is responsible for the East Flow Plan and should be the first to bear the brunt. It is the top priority."
Zhang Fei asked, "But if it was another river, wouldn't Chief Supervisor Cheng be so anxious?"
Cheng Fang nodded and said, "Of course."
Zhang Fei looked down at the copy and said, "But according to the information I have learned, when Cheng Dujian is dredging any river, he is always so eager to recruit a large number of river servants and mobilize a large number of soldiers to quickly dredge the river by relying on the human wave tactics."
Cheng Fang fell into deep thought again.
Zhang Fei waited for a while, then asked, "Since this fortification is so important, why didn't Supervisor Cheng prepare it first? In my opinion, food and clothing should be the most basic. As the Art of War says, food and grass must go before the three armies move. I wonder why Supervisor Cheng prepared the three armies first?"
Cheng Fang remained silent.
Zhang Fei did not press the issue, but instead said, "Deputy Envoy Cheng just said that the sailors were fleeing for their lives, and if they were not appeased, there might be changes. Do you agree with this?"
Cheng Fang thought for a while and replied, "I think Deputy Envoy Cheng is making a fuss out of nothing. This problem is not that serious."
Zhang Fei asked, "What do you think Cheng Dujian should have done?"
Cheng Fang said: "What I mean is that Deputy Envoy Cheng's response is correct, but his statement is a bit exaggerated. Moreover, if Chanzhou could have delivered the food and clothing to the river earlier, this situation would not have happened. If the food and clothing were under our management, then it would be our responsibility, but these food and clothing are not under our management."
Zhang Fei had no choice but to ask again: "Why didn't Cheng Dujian communicate first before taking action? It's like Cheng Dujian appealed to Your Majesty first and asked Your Majesty to allocate sailors to Cheng Dujian."
Cheng Fang fell into silence again.
Zhang Fei nodded, "Thank you, Chief Supervisor Cheng."
Then he looked at Wang Gong again and whispered, "Please ask Wang Xueshi to come out and testify. He seems a little anxious."
Wang Gong subconsciously glanced at Wang Anshi who was breathing heavily, the corners of his mouth twitched slightly, then he opened his mouth and asked Wang Anshi to come out and testify.
After hearing this, Cheng Fang felt like he had lost all his energy and slumped in his chair.
horrible!
This is even more terrifying than the rumors.
If you specifically ask people questions that you don't understand, how will they answer you?
Wang Anshi was just worried about Cheng Fang's IQ, not in a hurry to go on stage. He came to the front, without his usual confident demeanor, and came to the court with a mask of pain on his face and sat next to Cheng Fang.
Looking at this stupid teammate, my heart sank.
After the first attempt, he secretly swore that he would never testify in court again. There was no such pleasure as that of a court debate. It was just a strong sense of constipation. He was just passively taking a beating and was not allowed to fight back.
It’s so fucking annoying!
Zhang Fei flipped through another page of documents, glanced at them, then looked up and smiled at Wang Anshi, "First of all, thank you very much, Mr. Wang, for taking the time to attend this hearing."
"That's my job."
Wang Anshi responded calmly, but he was very cautious in his heart, secretly watching the changes in Zhang Fei's expression.
Zhang Fei nodded and said, "The main reason why I invited Wang Xueshi to attend this time is to clarify one thing, which is the issue of Cheng Dujian's power."
At this point, he lowered his head and glanced at the document again. "According to our investigation, it was at the suggestion of Wang Xueshi that the court set up the Hebei River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau, and Cheng Dujian was in charge of the entire Hebei water conservancy project."
Wang Anshi nodded and said, "Yes."
Zhang Fei asked, "Mr. Wang, can you explain why we need to set up this River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau?"
Wang Anshi said: "Because the East Flow Project is a large project involving dozens of prefectures and counties, and in the past, each prefecture was responsible for its own affairs and supervised each other, which often hindered each other and delayed construction, making it impossible to control the flood in time. If there is a problem, they will shirk responsibility and the court does not know how to hold them accountable. Under such circumstances, it is difficult to meet the requirements of this project. The establishment of the River Flood Control Department is to coordinate everything."
Zhang Fei asked, "I don't know what the responsibilities of the River Defense and Conservancy Bureau are?"
Wang Anshi said: "It means building a river channel."
Zhang Fei asked, "Regarding the conscription of laborers, the transfer of soldiers, and the transfer of food and clothing, are these the responsibilities of the River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau?"
Wang Anshi pondered for a moment and said, "It should be said that the River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau was established based on the needs of river works, and issued orders. The prefectures along the way, according to this plan, recruited laborers, mobilized money and grain, and repaired the river.
Among them, the Capital Water Conservancy Supervisor, the Transportation Bureau, the Censor-in-Chief, and the Local Magistrates can all supervise the construction work. In the past, if they disagreed, it would be difficult to start the construction work. Now, the main focus will be on the establishment of the River Defense and Conservancy Bureau to avoid this phenomenon.
Here, I want to make one more point. Most of the fortifications in our dynasty are mainly undertaken by soldiers from various places. Generally, no labor is conscripted to avoid delaying the people's farm work. However, river fortifications are an exception. Since river fortifications often require more manpower and material resources, laborers along the river will be conscripted to do it. Sailors are not included. The River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau has no right to call on sailors. This needs to be decided by Your Majesty and the court. "
Zhang Fei asked: "Can the River Defense Bureau formulate a plan on its own, or does it need to be reported to the court?"
Wang Anshi nodded and said, "Of course we need to report to the court. Only after the court's approval can the River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau issue tasks to the prefectures and counties."
"Thank you, Master Wang, for explaining it to us in detail."
Zhang Fei said: "But there is one thing I would like to know. Are there any restrictions on the process of conscripting laborers by local governments?"
Wang Anshi thought about it carefully and said, "There is no fixed time for labor service. Some are a few days, and some are a few years. However, there is a saying among the government and the people that those who are mobilized before spring plowing are called spring laborers, and those who are mobilized for urgent construction are called emergency laborers.
There are also regulations that those who are conscripted within 500 miles of the place of service are called "regular husbands" and must perform this corvee labor; those who are within 500 to 800 miles of the place can pay money instead of serving.
At the same time, our dynasty is different from previous dynasties. Our dynasty also stipulates that the husband's grain is two liters per day. This rule was set during the reign of Taizu. "
The two taxes in the Tang Dynasty stipulated that the maximum length of military service was forty days, but there was no such provision in the Song Dynasty, especially with regard to river service, the regulations in this regard were very vague.
Zhang Fei said: "According to what Wang Xueshi said, the number of laborers and the duration of labor are determined according to the needs of river defense works."
Wang Anshi nodded and said, "You can say that, but the conscription of labor is too much, and it is not an emergency, so we still need to report it to the court first."
Zhang Fei said: "In non-emergency situations, the amount of labor conscription needs to be reported to the court."
Wang Anshi thought for a moment and said, "There is no specific regulation on this. Generally, prefectures and counties along the river will recruit laborers every year. If the number exceeds the usual number, it should be reported to the court."
Zhang Fei asked: "If it is not reported to the court, is it against the system?"
Wang Anshi hesitated for a while and said, "It's not a violation of the system, but our dynasty has a complete supervision system. However, if someone has evidence to impeach the Minister of River Defense for abusing the people's power, the court will immediately send someone to investigate. If such a phenomenon does exist, he will be convicted."
Zhang Fei asked: "Does the court have a system to determine what constitutes abuse of the people's power?"
Wang Anshi said: "It mainly depends on whether the local people are living in poverty due to labor service."
Zhang Fei asked again: "What does it mean that people are living in poverty?"
Wang Anshi looked at Zhang Fei unhappily. You are just arguing. "Don't you think Prosecutor Zhang doesn't understand what it means to be in dire straits?"
"I understand."
Zhang Fei nodded and asked, "But I want to know clearly how to judge whether people are in dire straits. For example, in a county, is it considered as dire straits if all people cannot eat, or if half of the people cannot eat?"
This question left everyone present confused.
Even Zhao Xu was wondering, how to deal with the people’s miserable life?
Wang Anshi also thought about it for a long time, "There is no judgment in this regard. Generally, it is decided by local officials based on the situation."
Zhang Fei asked again: "Just now, Wang Xueshi said that according to the needs of the construction, laborers should be conscripted. Can the court accurately determine how much laborers should be required for a certain construction?"
Wang Anshi shook his head and said, "No! Because it is difficult to judge."
Zhang Fei asked: "How much to widen, how much to dig deeper, and how much work each laborer can do every day, can't the experienced officials give an estimate based on this?"
Wang Anshi said: "River defense is very complicated. It often takes one or two months to recruit laborers. In addition, the weather and soil quality vary. It is difficult for the Minister of River Defense to give an estimate."
Zhang Fei nodded and said, "Regarding local finance and river defense finance, is there a clear relationship of authority?"
Wang Anshi said: "The main financial burden for river defense is borne by the Transportation Department, and the Transportation Department also has the authority to supervise river works. As I just said, before the establishment of the River Defense Conservancy Department, the Transportation Department can refuse to allocate funds if it feels there is a problem.
But this also often leads to the Transportation Department becoming the culprit for delaying river works, so I suggest that Your Majesty set up a River Defense Department. Even now, if the Transportation Department believes that there are problems with the works, they can immediately submit a petition to the court, but the Minister of River Defense should take the lead and cannot easily refuse to allocate money and grain unless you have hard evidence to prove that there are indeed problems."
Zhang Fei asked: "What issues can be reported to the court?"
"Any questions."
Wang Anshi said: "For example, some people withhold food from the people, abuse the people's labor, engage in corruption, and so on."
Zhang Fei asked, "Do occupying people's fields and destroying people's houses count?"
Wang Anshi nodded and said, "These can all be counted."
Zhang Fei asked: "Is it a violation of the rules if you don't report it?"
Wang Anshi said: "The court is supervised by the censors."
Whenever Zhang Fei asked him, he would avoid answering unless it violated the rules. He knew that such a situation would definitely exist in such a large project.
Zhang Fei asked again: "Is it a violation of the rules if you don't report it?"
Wang Anshi was helpless and said: "It cannot be considered a violation of the system, but it can be considered a dereliction of duty."
It is better to avoid the main issue, because the crime of dereliction of duty generally does not belong to the judiciary but to the administration.
Zhang Fei said: "Suppose when widening the river channel, it is necessary to requisition the farmland and houses of the people. Do we need to report this to the court first? Or can we requisition them first and report later? Or, in other words, do we not need to report this at all?"
Wang Anshi said: "This kind of thing is usually discussed and decided by the local government and the River Flood Control Bureau. If everything has to be reported to the court first, it may delay the construction period."
Zhang Fei said: "But after reading a lot of documents, most of the river defense projects do not have a specific construction period. Just like this case, there is no specified construction period in all the relevant documents. The only similarity is that Cheng Dujian believes this is very urgent, but there is not even a relevant document recording that it must be completed within a few months."
Wang Anshi thought for a while and said, "Of course it is better to finish it as soon as possible. If a flood occurs before your work is completed, you will be primarily responsible. It is not easy to be the Minister of River Defense."
Zhang Fei smiled and nodded, then asked, "That is to say, the Minister of River Defense can arbitrarily requisition the people's fields and houses according to the construction work."
Wang Anshi said: "Of course it cannot be requisitioned arbitrarily, and the local government must also keep records."
Zhang Fei said: "If the local government prevents the Minister of River Defense from requisitioning a piece of civilian land, who should be the leader?"
".Of course, the Minister of River Defense."
Wang Anshi said: "If the local government feels that this is unreasonable, they can submit a petition to the court."
Zhang Fei asked: "According to what Wang Xueshi said, it is difficult to judge whether it is the abuse of people's power, the length of time required for construction, or the requisition of farmland and houses. The only thing that can be judged is corruption and bribery, but the judiciary is based on evidence. In other words, unless there is corruption and bribery, it is difficult for the judiciary to intervene."
Wang Anshi said: "For specific matters and specific judgments, the judiciary can certainly intervene."
Zhang Fei asked: "Suppose the court ordered the river to be widened by five zhang, but accidentally widened it by five zhang and one chi and destroyed the people's fields, can the judiciary hold the river defense minister responsible?"
You kid set a trap for me again. Wang Anshi couldn't help cursing inwardly. If he said that, Cheng Fang would be in trouble. Suddenly, an idea came to his mind and he smiled and said, "I think the questions you asked are just easy talk. You have never managed a river, so you don't know the difficulties. Everyone wants to be perfect, but often they can't do it.
Although some people may suffer as a result, more people will be spared from floods and the country will enjoy long-term stability. "
Zhang Fei said, "Mr. Wang has misunderstood. My questions are not to accuse anyone of not doing everything perfectly. I just want to ask a question clearly, that is, whether there is a law to follow in this whole matter. This is crucial to whether our procuratorate prosecutes. If there is no law to follow, then what basis does our procuratorate have to prosecute?"
Wang Anshi thought for a while and said, "It is indeed difficult for the public security, procuratorial and judicial systems to judge matters on the river."
Zhang Fei smiled and said, "But at present, it seems that the old judicial system is actually difficult to judge. Some people say that it is an abuse of people's power, while others say that it is not. In the end, there is no specific standard for judgment."
Han Qi stroked his beard and smiled, "I finally understand. The purpose of his hearing is to point out bad policies, not to target anyone."
Fu Bi said: "You only mentioned one of them."
Han Qi asked: "What is the second one?"
Fu Bi said: "For such things, the court can impose a punishment, it depends on whether the officials are willing to do so, but if detailed standards are formulated, the public security, procuratorate and courts can intervene."
Han Qi suddenly realized and said, "That is to say, before this, the public security, procuratorate and courts really cannot intervene."
Fu Bi nodded slightly.
Wang Anshi thought for a while and said, "Indeed, it is not possible to make an accurate estimate at present, but the court has realized this, so I added agronomy and water conservancy to the career college."
You've learned so well that you're even taking the opportunity to advertise. Zhang Fei suppressed his smile and said, "Thank you, Mr. Wang."
Wang Anshi glared at him secretly, then quickly got up and left, not wanting to stay even a second longer.
Next, Zhang Fei invited Sima Guang to come up. This must be equal. If you invite Wang Anshi but not Sima Guang, be careful that Sima Guang will ignore you for three days.
Sima Guang sat next to Cheng Yi, looking at Zhang Fei with a burning gaze, as if urging him, "Ask quickly, I can't wait to tear that thief apart with my bare hands."
Zhang Fei understood what he meant and asked directly, "I asked Scholar Sima to come up to ask about the power of the Minister of River Defense. I wonder if Scholar Sima agrees with Scholar Wang."
"What he just said is pure nonsense."
Sima Guang immediately scolded angrily.
Wang Anshi seemed to have expected this and shook his head in disgust.
Zhang Fei asked: "What do you mean?"
Sima Guang said: "If what he said is true, the river defense minister can do whatever he wants, even conscripting the people of a state to serve, and wantonly destroying the people's good farmland, but how is this possible?"
Zhang Fei asked: "Are there any relevant institutional restrictions?"
"Of course there is."
Sima Guang said: "The power of the Minister of River Defense is just to supervise whether the local governments have built the river according to the plan drawn up by the court. He should, as you just said, first inspect the river conditions and make a plan, such as how much to widen, how much labor is needed, and how long it will take to complete.
This number does not have to be specific, but it must at least be an approximate number, and then it should be submitted to the court, which will then decide whether to adopt it.
If adopted, the imperial court will issue orders to local governments, and local governments will act in accordance with the orders. This is called acting in accordance with the law. "
He looked excited, as if he had been holding it in for too long.
Zhang Fei said: "But I have checked the relevant systems, and there is indeed no standard system, nor is there a clear definition of the duties and powers of the Minister of River Defense."
Sima Guang snorted, "That's because the River Defense and Conservancy Bureau is a newly established government agency, so naturally there is no perfect system. But if the River Defense and Conservancy Bureau can decide everything, wouldn't it be against the laws of our ancestors? In addition, the court has not abolished the old perfect supervision system, so the relevant supervisory departments can still check and balance the River Defense and Conservancy Bureau."
Zhang Fei nodded and said, "But even if it is as Sima Xueshi said, the problem still remains. How to judge whether the people's power is abused, how to judge whether the people's fields and houses should be included in the fortifications. There are no specific regulations on the labor and money required for the fortifications.
Assuming that the previous supervisory system is still effective, how will these supervisors judge these issues? Will it be like what Wang Xueshi said, that he thinks two people are needed, while you think only one person is needed? Two people would be abusing the people's power, and the work would never be completed, and it would be difficult for the judiciary to intervene. "
Sima Guang nodded and said, "You are right. If there is a set of standards, that would be great. This aspect does need to be improved."
Zhang Fei asked: "Whose responsibility is this?"
"It belongs to..." Sima Guang suddenly glanced at Zhang Fei and said, "It belongs to us ministers' responsibility."
But then he immediately added: "But the purpose of flood control is to prevent the people from flooding. If we waste people's time and money to control the flood, and make the people homeless and without land to farm, what is the point?
Take this case for example. Is it really necessary to expand that tiny bit of river channel in the cold winter when there is a shortage of food and clothing? Even if this task is completed, it is not enough to resist the flood. This is not a one-day job and naturally cannot be rushed.
Emperor Yang of Sui built a canal, and Emperor Taizong of Tang also built a canal. Why were the results so opposite? The reason was that Emperor Taizong was considerate of the people and at the same time made a very complete plan. He would never rush into things, as the construction of the canal lasted throughout the entire Tang Dynasty.
The reason why Cheng Dujian urged them to speed up the work was because he was ambitious and didn't care about the lives of the soldiers. Did the court encourage such behavior?
Using history as a mirror, we can see that haste in the rise and fall of a country often leads to worse consequences. If Deputy Envoy Cheng had refused to let the sailors in, making them think that they would die anyway, what would they have done?
Although it is impossible to determine how much labor is considered an abuse of people's labor, we can at least determine whether there is an abuse of people's labor and whether there is damage to people's fields and houses based on the urgency of the construction and the local people's livelihood. "
Zhang Fei nodded and said, "What Sima Xueshi said makes sense, but the procuratorate cannot act according to reason, but should follow the system, rules and laws.
There seems to be no accurate criteria for judging the charges against Cheng Dujian."
This guy is sometimes even more stubborn than me. Sima Guang said, "Why not? You can check how many cases of partiality and abuse of power were found during the conscription of labor."
Zhang Fei said: "But the specific conscription of labor was done by the local government. If there is a problem, the local government should be held accountable. The River Defense and Conservancy Bureau was not directly involved in the process of conscription."
Sima Guang said: "They are just following the orders of the River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau."
Zhang Fei asked, "In the order to set up the River Defense Bureau, is there any indication that people can be conscripted for labor in illegal situations?"
Sima Guang said anxiously: "But the order to set up the River Defense and Water Conservancy Bureau is to force local officials not to abide by the law."
Zhang Fei said: "But Deputy Envoy Cheng refused the order of Chief Supervisor Cheng on the grounds of law."
".?"
The loop is closed.
Sima Guang said weakly: "Because they are worried about being retaliated by Cheng Dujian."
Zhang Fei said, "I have just asked Deputy Envoy Cheng about this question. Does Scholar Sima have a different answer?"
"No!"
Sima Guang closed his eyes.
It's really meaningless.
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