Xue Xiang's answer immediately caused the whole audience to fall silent.
The people watching had a sense of sudden enlightenment, as if they had suddenly learned a lot of knowledge. Although this hearing had been held many times before, it was the first time for them to come into contact with the operating mechanism of the national finance.
This was almost impossible in the feudal era.
Even those savvy businessmen were shocked for a moment as it was their first time to come into contact with this kind of macro-economic regulation.
The key is that Xue Xiang used a very profound and easy-to-understand way of speaking to explain this issue, so that even illiterate people could understand most of it.
The officials present, even Sima Guang, Fan Chunren, Su Shi and other officials who were very opposed to Xue Xiang, had to admit at this moment that Xue Xiang was capable and did not rely entirely on flattery and opportunism to get to the top.
It can only be said that heroes are made by the times. In history, although Xue Xiang had good political achievements, he was limited by the environment and ultimately could only be a flash in the pan.
Now that the times have changed, his talents are very well matched to the current environment, and he will naturally be able to shine.
These few short sentences explained the complex interest relationship very clearly and logically, causing Su Shi and the others to frown and ponder.
Are there really so many benefits?
...
...
Or is this just a smoke screen?
Even Zhao Xu, who was sitting in the inner hall, was thoughtful. Although he had talked with Xue Xiang before, Zhang Fei was missing in the process. The question and answer just now could still give him some new inspiration.
As the host, Zhang Fei certainly would not let Xue Xiang get away with it. He suddenly picked up a newspaper and said, "This is an article about taxes and currency published by Chief Prosecutor Su of Qizhou in the Mingshi Newspaper a few days ago. I wonder if the Three Envoys have read it?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "I have seen it."
Su Shi immediately perked up. He also wanted to know how Xue Xiang would deal with these problems. In his opinion, these problems were difficult to solve because they were all known to human nature. Issuing paper money to make money was to get something for nothing. Who could resist such temptation?
"In this article, Attorney General Su mentioned many disadvantages of tax currency."
At this point, Zhang Fei still looked down, and then said: "First, Chief Prosecutor Su compared the tax currency with Jiaozi. In the first year of Tiansheng, the court established the Jiaozi Office in Yizhou, with a capital of 360,000 strings of coins, and issued 1.26 million strings of 'official Jiaozi' for the first time. Although the capital was less than 30% of the number of Jiaozi issued, about 28%. But at least the court still has the capital, and when the three departments announced the tax currency, they did not mention the capital."
Xue Xiang replied: "I just said that the tax coin is just a voucher that can be used to pay taxes to the state, and it is only in the process of paying taxes that the face value of the tax coin is equal to the copper coin. The three officials never said that this tax coin is Jiaozi and can be exchanged for copper coins at any time, so it does not require capital."
Zhang Fei said: "The three officials mean that tax coins and copper coins cannot be exchanged."
Xue Xiang organized his words a little before answering carefully: "The court has no guarantee that the people holding tax coins will be able to exchange them for copper coins from the court or anyone else. Of course, the court may use copper coins to purchase tax coins from the people at some point in the future. In addition, the court does not object to the people exchanging them with each other."
I do not recognize that tax currency is equivalent to currency, but if you want to use it as currency, we have no objection.
After these words were spoken, everyone looked at each other, worry evident in their brows.
It turns out that tax coins cannot be exchanged for copper coins at will.
this..
Su Shi also frowned.
He has always regarded tax currency and Jiaozi as equal, just with different names. However, according to Xue Xiang's explanation, they are completely different!
It's something else!
Then his doubts seemed irrelevant.
Tax coins have no direct relationship with copper coins. It is just that in the process of paying taxes, the face value of the tax coin is equal to the same amount of copper coins.
Zhang Fei also expressed his doubts: "As we all know, the development of Jiaozi business in many places is not good, and this is still the case when there is capital. Now the tax currency has no capital, so why do people believe in this tax currency and are willing to use it."
Everyone nodded in agreement. This was too unfair. It sounded like it was worse than paying the bill!
Xue Xiang said: "In fact, the reason why we issued tax coins without preparing capital is to learn from the lessons of Jiaozi. We believe that the people are more willing to use tax coins than Jiaozi."
After hearing this, the people immediately felt that they were believed.
Why do you believe it?
"Really?" Zhang Fei was also curious and asked, "Can the Third Envoy explain it in detail?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "The emergence of Jiaozi is because merchants and wealthy people deposited money into money shops and received a voucher. Later, people gradually realized that since this voucher could be used to withdraw money at any time, it would be better to trade directly with the voucher, thus the birth of Jiaozi.
But then they encountered a crisis. For various reasons, some merchants in the Jiaozi shops spent all the money that everyone had saved, resulting in the inability to withdraw money from the Jiaozi shops, or they secretly ran away with the money.
Obviously, the problem here is that no one can ensure that they can withdraw the money at any time. Although the public security, procuratorial and judicial departments can now supervise, if the owner of the Jiaozi shop runs away or dies, the people can only accept the compensation. If it is a Jiaozi shop opened by a businessman, the state cannot pay the compensation on his behalf.
But tax coins are different from Jiaozi, because every citizen must pay taxes every year, and tax coins are the certificates issued by the court to them for paying taxes. Both sides have the upper hand over each other. If the court issues them indiscriminately or over-issues them, the court will also face heavy losses, which will force the court to treat it with caution.
Secondly, since there are proofs, the law can better protect both parties, and the rights and interests of both parties should be more equal.”
After he said this, the people felt that it made sense and that tax currency was more reliable than Jiaozi.
Zhang Fei nodded: "Indeed, some profiteers who run Jiaozi shops have bad intentions and run away with the money. If they are not caught, it will be difficult for the judiciary to compensate the people. Tax coins can indeed do better, because if there is a problem with tax coins, the court's tax revenue will inevitably fluctuate violently, and tax revenue will affect the operation of the court. At the same time, the law can also provide better protection for the people."
"That's right."
Xue Xiang nodded and continued, "Prosecutor General Su also mentioned in the article another drawback of the Jiaozi business, which is that when everyone comes to withdraw money, if the capital is insufficient, it will lead to a loss of credibility, which will cause the Jiaozi shop to close.
There is no such problem with tax coins. Last year we collected 80% of the tax coins, but it did not cause any problems. If it was a Jiaozi shop, it would definitely be over. "
Su Shi frowned, shook his head, and said to himself: "But if enough money is issued in a short period of time, more than ten times the annual tax revenue, the people will still suffer losses, and the court will be able to plunder all the wealth of the people."
Fan Chunren asked: "Can we legislate to prohibit the issuance of too many tax coins?"
Su Shi glanced at Fan Chunren and said nothing.
Zhang Fei smiled and said, "I know that the Third Envoy has read Chief Prosecutor Su's article, but it would be better for him to wait until I ask before answering."
Xue Xiang was stunned for a moment, then said awkwardly, "Sorry."
This brat. Zhao Yan glanced at Zhang Fei and almost laughed out loud.
Zhang Fei coughed and continued to ask: "Prosecutor Su also mentioned the issuance of tax coins in the article. Although the Jiaozi Bureau often issues Jiaozi at three to four times the capital, there is a rule to follow, which is to calculate based on the capital. The Three Departments have just confirmed that tax coins have no capital, so how do the Three Departments calculate how many tax coins to issue, and how to make everyone believe that there will be no phenomenon of excessive issuance of tax coins, which will cause serious losses to the people.
Although the Three Envoys have explained that the court will also suffer losses if the court issues tax coins in excess, if the court issues tax coins several times the tax revenue, the people will only be able to pay so much tax coins, and the value of the tax coins left in their hands will inevitably plummet. "
Su Shi nodded his head as he heard this.
Xue Xiang replied: "Since it is a tax coin, it is naturally related to taxes. I have already said that in the past, the people paid taxes with silk and grain, and the court gave them to officials. Now it is just that the court gives tax coins to officials, and the officials buy them from the people, and the people get the tax coins and give them to the court."
Zhang Fei asked: "So, the court can issue as many tax coins as the taxes it collects?"
Xue Xiang shook his head and said, "It's not that simple. Tax revenue is only a guarantee for tax coins, and the situation that Prosecutor Zhang just mentioned is equivalent to destroying this guarantee. The court will certainly not issue so many tax coins. But the specific amount is not based on tax revenue, but on the demand for coins and the development of commerce.
Just as I said just now, the reason for issuing tax coins this time is because of the shortage of money, which has always plagued our dynasty and has many dangers.
We do this to help the people and save money for the country. As Wang Xianggong mentioned, the idea is that the people will not be taxed more and the country will have more money. "
Wang Anshi smiled slightly. This flattery was of some quality and he liked it very much.
Sima Guang and the others rolled their eyes, thinking that the dog could never change its bad nature. In their opinion, the flattery was too blunt!
Then Xue Xiang continued, "In addition, based on my observations of Hezhong Prefecture, issuing some salt notes appropriately can promote the development of commerce, but if there are too many, even if there are not as many as Prosecutor Zhang said, it will also affect the credibility of the tax currency and the development of commerce.
Therefore, when there is a shortage of currency in the market, we will issue more, and when there is no shortage of tax coins in the market, we will issue less, or even no tax coins, and when business development is unfavorable, we will issue more.
We will even use real money to buy tax coins when we have time.”
“That sounds complicated.”
Zhang Fei said: "Whether the people have a demand for coins, this may be observable. For example, the current money shortage means that the people lack coins. But what I want to know is, how do the three departments determine how much to issue? And how much to buy back?"
Xue Xiang hesitated for a moment and said, "To be honest with Prosecutor Zhang, our three divisions are still trying to figure it out and have not yet found an accurate calculation method."
Zhang Fei asked, "So the 3.2 million strings of cash announced by the Three Departments now is just a lucky number for the Three Departments?"
"Ha ha!"
As soon as these words were spoken, there was an immediate burst of laughter, and the originally serious atmosphere disappeared in an instant.
Even Zhao Xu was stunned for a moment, then shook his head with a wry smile.
"quiet!"
Xu Zun knocked the gavel hard a few times, and then said to Zhang Fei, "Prosecutor Zhang, please be careful with your words. This is not a trial."
Zhao Yan immediately turned his head to look at Xu Zun.
What's the meaning?
It's okay to be so frivolous in the imperial court.
Xu Zun also reacted and quickly added: "This is not the way to conduct a trial."
There was majesty in his eyes. "Boy, you are trying to trick your father-in-law. I am the nominal host!"
Zhang Fei whispered, "I'm not kidding. He was so confident before, but he didn't even have a calculation method. I have to ridicule him. We are not that easy to fool."
Zhao Yan nodded and said, "That makes sense."
Seeing that Zhao Yan had said so, Xu Zun naturally didn't say much.
"That's fine! That's fine! It's understandable that Prosecutor Zhang is confused."
Instead of getting angry, Xue Xiang took the initiative to help Zhang Fei out.
Zhang Fei smiled and said, "Thank you for your understanding."
Xue Xiang answered seriously again: "First of all, this 3.2 million strings of cash is certainly not my lucky number. I also admit that this is not an accurate number.
However, this is a very conservative number. When we compare the tax revenues of the past year with those of previous years, as far as the capital area is concerned, last year's tax revenues, including tax coins and coins alone, were about 2.3 million strings of cash more than the coins collected in previous years.
These should have been goods handed over. Now that the people have not handed them over, they need to sell these good goods, and the buyers should be officials and soldiers. I have just explained the reason for this.
Although we have not yet found a specific calculation method, we have found some clues based on last year's situation and the financial changes in Hezhong Prefecture. For example, if we analyze from the commercial tax, if the commercial tax increases, more tax coins will naturally be needed. If the commercial tax decreases, the tax coins should be purchased back.
Last year, commercial taxes saw a significant increase. In addition, we are currently facing a cash shortage. Even if we issue 3 million strings of cash in the capital area, it is actually not a lot.
More importantly, the court did not issue tax coins because it was short of money. Although the court issued 5 million strings of cash for disaster relief last year, that was all the money the court had saved recently because of Prime Minister Wang’s reforms.
Zhang Fei immediately asked: "Why didn't you issue 3 million strings of cash in the capital?"
Xue Xiang replied: "This is because we expect that when the court issues tax coins, the value of the coins will decrease, and more people may take out coins, but we don't know how much money will be taken out yet.
Therefore, in the notice we published, we emphasized that the 3.2 million strings of coins would not be distributed all at once, but in batches. The purpose was to observe the people's demand for coins. If there was no demand, the court would stop immediately.
As I just said, this tax and currency plan is aimed at serving the country and the people, not at making money for the country. We will still put the people first.
This is also the expectation mentioned by the government at the end of last year, that is, to focus on domestic affairs, restore people's strength, and achieve peace and prosperity for the country and the people."
These words won many people nodding in praise.
Of course, Zhao Xu was also very satisfied.
If you can speak, say more.
Zhang Fei nodded and said, "I know that too. The current emperor is very concerned about people's livelihood. But since the three envoys said that the court is not short of money, why not wait until we find out the situation clearly before issuing tax coins? Wouldn't that be more appropriate?"
Xue Xiang replied: "If we don't issue tax coins, we will never know how to accurately calculate when and how much coins to issue, and when and how much coins to buy back. This issuance of tax coins is just a trial. The court can still provide sufficient guarantees for 3.2 million strings of cash."
Zhang Fei asked: "How many years will it take to test this?"
Xue Xiang replied: "It will take at least two or three years, but during these two or three years, we will decide whether to issue tax coins based on the people's demand for coins, rather than setting a fixed number to be issued each year.
Once we have gained experience, we will disclose all our calculation methods openly and honestly without hiding anything from anyone, and we will also cooperate with the public security, procuratorial and judicial investigations.
Because for the imperial court, apart from anything else, the increase in commercial taxes and the savings in losses brought by the tax coins alone are astonishing. We will not take the risk of excessively issuing tax coins to gain temporary wealth. "
Zhang Fei asked: "But the moon waxes and wanes, and people are subject to misfortunes and blessings at any time. If there is a natural disaster or a war, when the court is in urgent need of money, how can the three officials ensure that the court will not abuse tax coins to obtain more financial resources in a short period of time.
As far as I know, the failure of some Jiaozi businesses in Shaanxi was actually caused by war, not by some corrupt officials. "
Sima Guang, Su Shi and others nodded frequently as they listened.
This is what they are most worried about.
Normally, they also believed that the court would not issue tax coins indiscriminately, but the Song Dynasty's finances had already been in deficit, and if a war broke out again, the finances would become very tight. Issuing tax coins was obviously an excellent way to quickly make money.
This is how Jiaoziwu ended. When it was a life-threatening situation, who cared about so many things? They couldn't stop it!
They don't want to open this door.
Xue Xiang replied: "We, the three divisions, have actually thought about the situation mentioned by Prosecutor Zhang, and have also studied it carefully. We found that the salt debt of Hezhong Prefecture is more suitable for dealing with this situation.
When everyone is in urgent need of money, whether it is a natural disaster or a war, almost everyone chooses to borrow money. The court can certainly choose to borrow money. Besides, this is also used to protect the people of our Song Dynasty, and it is not something embarrassing to talk about.
Although it has not been decided yet, if we really need money urgently, I suggest that the court issue debts instead of issuing tax coins indiscriminately. "
Zhang Fei said: "Debt contracts also abide by the law of contracts, which means that both parties are willing. When the court issues debts, the people may not necessarily sell them."
Xue Xiang said: "For example, the salt debt of Hezhong Prefecture did not force people to buy it, but many people bought it because it has interest. If it is profitable, there will always be people who buy it.
If someone is worried that the court cannot pay back the money, then he will definitely not lend money to anyone. Just ask yourself, who in the world has as much money as the court? "
Zhang Fei asked: "But the court also has fixed expenses every year. As far as I know, before the emperor used Wang Xianggong to reform the law, the court's finances were in deficit."
Xue Xiang said: "But now that we have a reorganization bill, and this clause has been written into the temporary law, if the court is spending more than it earns, it can find ways to cut costs. As long as it makes reasonable arrangements, it will definitely be able to pay off its debts. This is safer than lending money to those wealthy people."
Zhang Fei nodded and asked, "Just now, the Three-Commissioner said that if it were him, he would suggest that the court issue a debt similar to the salt debt?"
"Yes."
Xue Xiang nodded.
Zhang Fei asked again: "But according to the system of our dynasty, the Three Envoys cannot stay in the Three Envoys forever. What if the next Three Envoys think differently from the Three Envoys?
Moreover, there is a precedent for this. When Fan Xiang Fan Transport Office was in charge of the salt administration in Hezhong Prefecture, the implementation of the Salt Note Law was very smooth. However, when Fan Transport Office left Hezhong Prefecture, the situation took a sharp turn for the worse. Some salt merchants suffered considerable losses due to the salt notes. The situation did not improve until the three officials left.
At that time, the salt notes only affected some salt merchants, which was not particularly troublesome, but the tax currency was related to every citizen. Did the three officials think about how to prevent this from happening? In other words, it is to ensure the continuity of the policy, rather than the end of the policy when the person leaves. "
Su Shi wondered, "Why does he keep using Hezhong Prefecture as an example?"
Sima Guang said: "He only served as the chief judge in Hezhong Prefecture for a few years."
Su Shi nodded.
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "Of course I have thought about this issue. To be honest, I can't stop this situation. The only suggestion I can give is to legislate on this. Hezhong Prefecture is the best example, especially with the current separation of politics and law. The public security, procuratorial and judicial organs can defend the law and will not be easily undermined."
Zhang Fei nodded and said seriously: "That makes sense. This is indeed a good idea."
Xue Xiang smiled.
Many powerful people looked at Zhang Fei and Xue Xiang with contempt.
Why are they still praising each other professionally?
Zhang Fei looked down at the document and asked, "According to the plan announced by the three departments, one million guan is to be used in Hebei?"
Xue Xiang nodded and said, "Yes."
Zhang Fei said: "But there is no news at the moment. I heard that there is also a money shortage in Hebei."
Xue Xiang said: "There is no shortage of money in Hebei because the people's livelihood in Hebei is already in decline. According to last year's tax revenue, the tax revenue of the disaster-stricken areas has not decreased much, except for Hebei, where the situation is still relatively serious. Your Majesty is very concerned about Hebei.
Therefore, the emperor decided to allocate 1 million guan from the money to Hebei to continue the work-for-relief program, in order to help the people get more livelihoods and restore the strength of the people in Hebei. "
This won the recognition of Fu Bi, Wen Yanbo and others. Hebei is crucial to resisting the Liao Kingdom. At present, the Liao Kingdom continues to exert pressure, and it is indeed necessary to help Hebei restore its people's strength as soon as possible.
Zhang Fei asked again: "If the three departments successfully release the tax currency, will this tax currency be used throughout the country? Or is it limited to the capital area?"
Xue Xiang said: "It is not used nationwide, nor is it limited to the capital area. It is the area affected by the disaster last year. Because they used tax coins last year, the local government is also very familiar with the tax coins, so there will be no trouble when collecting taxes. Other counties are not familiar with the tax coins, so for the time being, tax coins cannot be used to pay taxes in those counties. We will announce the specific counties and cities that will use them soon."
Zhang Fei asked: "In this case, have the three envoys ever thought about what to do when merchants from other places come to the capital to do business and receive tax coins?"
Xue Xiang said: "First of all, most of the merchants who come to the capital to do business buy some goods to take back. I also suggest that they exchange them for goods, because the current tax currency system is not yet perfect. But if they want to exchange them for money, then in Qizhou, Qingzhou, Hezhong Prefecture, and other counties with Ma's warehouse shops, they can exchange money from there, because the court has always cooperated with the Ma family, and the Ma family has a business of flying money. At that time, those foreign merchants can deposit tax coins into the Ma's warehouse shop in the capital, and then take the voucher to other Ma's warehouse shops to withdraw them."
Zhang Fei nodded slightly, and then asked Zhao Yan, Cao Dongdong, and Xu Zun: "Do you three have any other questions?"
On this economic issue, Zhao Yan and Xu Zun are not much better than Cao Dongdong. They still have some problems and have not come to terms with it. They all shake their heads in confusion.
Zhang Fei then said to Xue Xiang: "Thank you very much for coming here to explain to us."
Xue Xiang hurriedly said: "This is my job."
Zhang Fei said loudly again: "Today's hearing ends here."
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